C-Level View: Authentische Führung in unsicheren Zeiten mit Saira Demmer, CEO SF Partners - #172 (english)

00:00:00: Hello and welcome to Lessons To Grow, the podcast on good corporate leadership in times of change.

00:00:07: I'm Armin Elrao international manager and entrepreneur.

00:00:11: Today again The C-suite is sharing insights on good Corporate Leadership And that's why we've got Sarah Demer with us today.

00:00:20: She is the CEO of SF Partners a leading executive search firm from the UK.

00:00:27: So stay with us.

00:00:28: listen to Sarah's C-Level Leadership Insights right after

00:00:33: the intro.

00:00:40: Hello, Sarah!

00:00:42: Hi, Grace B here.

00:00:44: Good to have you.

00:00:45: Thank You very much for being with us To start off.

00:00:51: Would you mind just telling our listeners a little bit more about your track record?

00:00:59: Your current position and so on

00:01:03: Perfect.

00:01:03: So yes, I'm Sarah Gemma CEO of SF Partner and i started my career in a completely different industry in mergers and acquisitions and found myself very quickly buying and selling recruitment businesses near direct fall to buy side and sell-side transactions before moving into the recruitment sector where um...I had a period time as CFO before being promoted up to CEO.

00:01:33: I've been in that role since January, twenty-twenty and then at time we have transformed from a small niche player in the midlands of UK focused only on finance and accountancy.

00:01:46: so today um...we are in fire locations across the UK.

00:01:51: We specialise in six key areas being finance technology transformation, professional services engineering and executive search.

00:02:02: And we've also now started our international expansion starting in Germany.

00:02:07: That's why you are based in Germany right?

00:02:10: Yeah that's right.

00:02:11: so I'm based in Frankfurt and i'm leading the build out of our German operations.

00:02:16: Sounds good!

00:02:16: So you have two jobs at a time.

00:02:19: yeah most definitely

00:02:21: Good, good.

00:02:22: Our topic is corporate leadership or say good corporate leadership and that's the core of lessons to grow.

00:02:29: How do you define?

00:02:30: Good leadership today And what separates the bad from the good and the good from the excellent?

00:02:36: yeah I think You know did the job with a leader at any C sweet leader book particularly a CEO who so varied in terms Of subject matter that he needs to be sitting across there.

00:02:49: You know, different leaders are technically capable in some areas.

00:02:53: Other leaders might be good at marketing and another one might be a good at finance.

00:02:56: I think all of that stuff is almost by the buy-in away When you get to the level.

00:03:03: being in true leadership position what you can do matters far less than how you make people feel.

00:03:10: And for me i think The true differentiator with good and excellent leaders it's really about authentic you are.

00:03:19: Do you bring your real self to work?

00:03:21: Are you, are you authentic and open and honest about how you go about your

00:03:26: day?".

00:03:27: You know do make people feel like they're working for you as a person or do you make people Feel that...you are a line manager?

00:03:36: They're reporting lying in-your both occupying boxes because of corporate entity says so.

00:03:42: And I think the leaders that i've seen over these who really excellent other of those that are able to bring people with them on a journey, because first of all they've brought into you.

00:03:53: They know who you are good and bad in the leaders or I think often under so much pressure to be perfect look like there on top of things And fundamentally People don't buy into that.

00:04:04: everybody's human.

00:04:05: Everybody makes mistakes and i think The more That we as leaders Are open about what We do Know What?

00:04:12: where we're unsure, but were going to try it anyway.

00:04:15: Where are sure?

00:04:16: because we've done this before and got the experience We really take people on a journey with us.

00:04:20: I think that's why you get buy-in Because People don't buy into job title or somebody occupying position in corner office.

00:04:28: They buying into You And The Journey That Your Taking Them On And Emotions That You Make Them Feel by being open about where your own challenges are.

00:04:37: And when you have that authenticity, get the buy-in it's much easier to take people on a journey of vision and what they're trying to build or mission in Iran.

00:04:47: It is also crucially much easier through difficult times.

00:04:51: not everything will go right why you made a certain decision, where the knowledge gaps were but we're going to try it anyway.

00:05:01: When things don't work out nobody gets too stressed about it.

00:05:04: Nobody sits there saying oh what an idiotic decisions she make.

00:05:07: They understood that they are part of their journey because It was authentic from start-to-finish and I think businesses That have built on that kind of authentic leadership are always the ones I see that are able to navigate through lots and lots of change, they're able to typically grow faster.

00:05:23: They fail a lot more than less authentic businesses but also move forward in achieving things for every ten thing you try even if there get five wrongs right?

00:05:34: For me it all comes back into.

00:05:36: that linchpin of authenticity is what enables this

00:05:41: Sounds very interesting, especially coming back to authenticity.

00:05:47: That is something obviously that strikes me immediately.

00:05:49: and do you think there are limits for authenticity?

00:05:56: Can really be the person who you are after you've passed the gates of the premises?

00:06:03: Yeah I mean look!

00:06:04: There's always a limit in it.

00:06:07: the way that you might be on a Saturday morning, with your husband and your kids is not the same as how are going to show up at work.

00:06:16: But I think there's levels of professionalism but matter... ...but I think authenticity about trying to pretend something that you're not.

00:06:27: You don't have all-your warts and all messy hair no makeup or what have you.. ..but i see so often leaders, especially newer leaders who haven't yet got comfortable in that leadership skin.

00:06:40: Trying to play a part of the leader and trying to be what they think people want to see rather than just trusting their own instincts.

00:06:47: when I talk about authenticity That's What i mean.

00:06:49: it being true To Who You Are And What Guides you?

00:06:52: Um...you don't need to tell everybody A hundred percent Of The foibles are going on In your brain but Don't Tell Them Things That aren't in Your Brain Just Because You Think It Makes You Look Good.

00:07:04: Yeah, sounds good.

00:07:05: Don't pretend to be somebody who you aren't right?

00:07:10: Happens quite a bit with people Who are out of depth.

00:07:17: You know where we see that they're most probably not big enough for the job.

00:07:25: From my experience They are losing authenticity immediately.

00:07:29: really

00:07:30: It takes a lot of confidence to be authentic because you have to push up The people are gonna like you.

00:07:36: and if you don't have that confidence and trust the natural interest to try To be something different isn't it?

00:07:42: So yeah, I think It's also important.

00:07:44: That people come to these positions when they've learned their way into them.

00:07:48: You learn over time as a leader Don't know what works What doesn't work with which aspects of your personality.

00:07:52: People really buy in too that you should you know Really double down on.

00:07:56: and then i think Sometimes As you say happens When people get promoted Too quickly.

00:08:00: They haven't had enough time Learned Their Way Into.

00:08:03: And so the panic sets in.

00:08:05: and that's suddenly when you get this kind of very disconnected, inauthentic experience.

00:08:11: Yeah also people who talk themselves into a job I mean your recruiting all the time.

00:08:16: So one of the biggest challenges is to really know at the end of day do the litmus test and say listen Is this person REALLY the right person for their job?

00:08:28: Which experiences are you making there?

00:08:32: What's the risk of making a bad decision?

00:08:34: Let's put it.

00:08:35: Yeah, well for my recruitment background I'll give you if... A little tip Those that sell themselves to something Are usually less capable at doing than those who don't.

00:08:47: It is always people Who have the least belief in themself Not necessarily the least believe but like say Don't try and talk yourself into position.

00:08:59: They just show up actually do.

00:09:02: who are the ones that deliver most effectively and authentically.

00:09:08: Beware of overselling!

00:09:10: Yeah, yeah now... That's the topic you know we're already touching on.

00:09:17: next topic I'd like to discuss with you as your working with corporate leaders all time what do you see is their greatest challenge when trying their organisations?

00:09:32: well, in this day and age obviously.

00:09:35: I mean there was different forty years ago.

00:09:40: but if you're thinking about today and the specific challenges that we are facing what other challenges?

00:09:48: What are central challenges of the C-suite?

00:09:51: Yeah i say two main things come to mind.

00:09:54: one is actually a real challenge for good leaders is how to be everywhere.

00:10:01: If you're a good leader, You have really positive impact on your business On the people around you.

00:10:07: People draw energy from you People feel supported and inspired by you And when you are all of those things People benefit From time Your presence Being around As your business grows When small starts up Everybody's in room.

00:10:23: That very easy To bring that energy The infectiousness When you've suddenly expanded and got, y'know, twenty different locations in people all over the place.

00:10:34: How do bring that energy yourself to whole business is actually an advantage for poor leaders who can hide behind process.

00:10:45: don't bring their energy when they're not there.

00:10:47: it doesn't make a difference.

00:10:49: obviously thats not necessarily an advert.

00:10:52: why should be a poor leader?

00:10:53: but I think its unique challenge In the way that I'm saying through being very authentic and inspiring, everybody wants that.

00:11:02: But is there a limit?

00:11:03: Is there a

00:11:04: ceiling?".

00:11:04: And i think in the last few years especially since Covid it's become much easier to be more omnipresent.

00:11:11: you know people are used to okay... The bosses somewhere else but we jump on quick teams call or everybody's on chats, what's that message?

00:11:21: Or whatever it might be.

00:11:23: There are a lot more channels to have your tentacles everywhere.

00:11:27: but really is the difficulty especially as businesses going through fast scaling you have to replicate yourself very quickly and not difficult because authentic infectious leadership is a hard skill to learn and really only the most excellent leaders have that.

00:11:47: So say, That's one thing.

00:11:48: there's universal challenge new particularly when you get into the big world You're happy to rely on different ways of working.

00:11:56: The second thing I want this unique at moment Is AI?

00:12:00: And how fast everything is changing And I think in the world that we work, there's two types of businesses right now.

00:12:10: There are those who throw themselves into the unknown, recognising as leadership teams or tech departments... We don't necessarily know everything there is to know about AI but we need to learn and play figure out what we can make work for us at the moment.

00:12:28: and then there's the camp of those who are just waiting to see what everybody else does, they'll pick it up later maybe because they don't have the in-house expertise.

00:12:35: They've got other things that need focus on.

00:12:41: but I think its a really unique challenge as the world is changing so rapidly what we're capable of now, not only is it significant compared with where were only a few years ago but its continuing to move at pace.

00:12:59: So It's a full time job for anybody.

00:13:03: keep abreast that and actually be informed about the art of possible which people who already have very busy jobs don't have time do.

00:13:12: so We are in world.

00:13:14: you driving car changing wheels and it creates so much change, so much flux that the best leaders can never have a perfect concrete plan about what they're going to do about this.

00:13:27: So you have to get comfortable living in a world is constantly changing where you can't have a strategy.

00:13:33: your strategy has to be to flex into evolve and to constantly change and to be ready to do that And I don't think for a very long time there backdrop like that.

00:13:44: I think we're living through quite a unique, exciting time and as this gabbard's case in the next three to five years i think we are going see lot of businesses shake out of market who haven't been able keep pace with what is happening?

00:14:00: Do you meet many leaders of that ilk?

00:14:05: or you would say wow!

00:14:09: This guy is perfectly capable of working, as you say on one hand keeping the energy level high also transmitting the energy into the organization and to your hearts and minds their managers.

00:14:31: And at the same time live with this unbelievable level of uncertainty that we've got today.

00:14:39: I personally believe this AI thing is a bigger revolution than the internet.

00:14:44: I'm convinced of that, and we still don't know what changes it's going to bring.

00:14:51: on The other hand you if your leading these organizations You have deal with.

00:14:56: so how do see this?

00:14:58: How many people are speaking too ready?

00:15:02: Is there lot to do?

00:15:03: What can be done?

00:15:06: There's a really, really broad spectrum.

00:15:09: I'd say that there are increasing numbers of business leaders... You can't be expert at all this stuff unless you're running a tech business and it is your job too.

00:15:18: but i think you could see the difference between those who were taking time to learn about what becoming possible how they can potentially deploy into their businesses to improve service levels or whatever their focus not interested in holding maybe more defensive positions.

00:15:38: and look, you know some of it depends on the industry as to what's appropriate.

00:15:42: But I think there is a reality that business leaders whether they want or not don't have a choice.

00:15:47: so you have become comfortable with this changing environment because it IS THE ENVIRONMENT WHETHER YOU COMFORMED WITH IT OR NOT.

00:15:54: IT'S WHAT'S HAPPENING.

00:15:55: AND SO IT IS THE BACKDROP AGAINST WHICH EVERYBODY'S HAVING TO DO THE JOB.

00:16:00: It'll be interesting to see whether CEO or C-suite turnover increases over the more years as we start to flush out those who have not kept pace with it.

00:16:12: and you know, sure will see lots of businesses really start to skyrocket as well.

00:16:17: Who have deployed it?

00:16:19: Still increasing so still...still increasing but turnover?

00:16:24: I'm just saying it will be interesting to see if it starts increasing.

00:16:29: Okay, sorry about that wrong what It had already started because that would have been my next question too.

00:16:35: Sorry for interruption but quite an interesting point here could Be do we need younger leaders faster now?

00:16:45: What did you say

00:16:46: is an interesting one out.

00:16:47: i became CEO when i was thirty four.

00:16:49: i Was quiet in a young time

00:16:52: still.

00:16:53: There

00:16:59: is a real balance to be had in the leadership role, as I was saying.

00:17:03: You have to you have to be ready for that position because so much weight on your shoulders other people's careers The health of your business and these are not positions to be taken lightly or by People chancing their ability to do it.

00:17:20: It what?

00:17:20: Do matters.

00:17:21: And So i think having young energy influencing leadership teams is definitely important.

00:17:29: I do think, you know there are things i know now and things that i would deal with differently now than when I first came on board in my early thirties And so experience matters having been through things before.

00:17:45: Is the number one driver of your ability to handle a work situation well.

00:17:51: but at the same time, as you say.

00:17:53: The world's changing massively so I think that age of a leader doesn't necessarily matter...I think it is who they surround themselves with and are allowing them to be influenced by.

00:18:05: if your an older leader in their entire circle its people of your generation who are maybe not tech savvy then, of course that's going to cause you problems.

00:18:13: and similarly if you're a younger lead when you only surround yourself with that type of people.

00:18:16: You aren't getting the benefit for years of experience or wisdom from those who have been there.

00:18:21: so I think it has to be balanced.

00:18:23: in every situation one is necessarily better than another as long as drawing on the right experience.

00:18:32: Yeah, yeah brings me to another topic.

00:18:36: I'm absolutely convinced that diversity in leadership and also teams can add an awful lot of value.

00:18:44: you know?

00:18:46: Younger managers with older managers women and men.

00:18:50: i don't know various cultures different languages like... You name it.

00:18:55: what do you see in the market as far as that is concerned?

00:18:59: because impact because as long we are able to deal with differences, you know.

00:19:08: We also keep a certain flexibility which again equips us for the challenges that we've just talked about.

00:19:16: and what's your point?

00:19:17: I

00:19:18: have always taken bit of different view on diversity And i say this is an Asian woman leading her business.

00:19:29: There's someone who when I came in, I moved our gender pay gap from twenty three percent to zero In...in three years.

00:19:36: So you know We've been able to have a massive impact on our business.

00:19:40: But i didn't do any of it deliberately.

00:19:42: I didn't sit there and examine the numbers And say You Know what's going here or What's Going On there?

00:19:47: Yeah!

00:19:48: I just got on with building A great Business and putting The best person for the job into every role.

00:19:56: end up with a mixture of people, because you're promoting on skills.

00:20:03: You're not promoting who looks the part or has been playing golf with whoever.

00:20:08: and so I have to say that i am NOT in favour of forced diversity targets.

00:20:17: from my own perspective... ...I would never want feel like I had put into senior position or promoted Because of my demographic background, I want to know why got that promotion?

00:20:28: because i earned it And because I was the best person for the job.

00:20:33: That is what should be happening.

00:20:34: shouldn't we putting people into roles unless they are The Best Person For The Job no matter who They Are?

00:20:39: So I think there's one important thing I Think.

00:20:42: the other Thing I would say Is

00:20:45: In

00:20:45: My View What Matters A Lot More in Creating a Diverse Culture is alignment around values.

00:20:54: I think when you have alignment about what you are motivated and ambitious to achieve in life, generally... And i know there's exceptions but generally people can look past every type of demographic difference.

00:21:08: if your value aligns ,if you're ambitious .

00:21:11: If you will buy into the same vision ..If You're All Motivated To Build The Same Thing ...You Know Generally We Are In A World At Least In Western Europe Where Men and women have worked together for a very long time.

00:21:23: You know, we're all used to very multicultural environments And it doesn't mean that there isn't more to be done.

00:21:29: but I think where Where I see businesses go wrong with diversity is by actually trying to try too hard To do diversity by numbers instead of just creating a brilliant culture Alignment around values and then trusting the best people For their job will come into that and buy human nature.

00:21:48: The selection of people is going to be a diverse one because that's the environment we live in.

00:21:53: So, you know maybe it's slightly unpopular view but I don't think diversity always has been done in a forced way.

00:22:01: We've proven that we can create really positive and diverse environments by just getting on with all doing a brilliant job.

00:22:10: Understand so.

00:22:11: nevertheless You know the gender pay gap Excuse me this was hard is a fact.

00:22:22: It does exist, I think in Germany it's about twenty-three percent which is horrendous you see.

00:22:26: so let's say we're doing the same job equally qualified and you earn thirty three percent less than i do completely insane from my point of view.

00:22:40: now What would you say?

00:22:44: Because that is really an interesting topic.

00:22:46: So, You've done that!

00:22:48: You eliminated the gender pay gap... ...you're only promoted by skill.... What will have

00:22:53: happened?...

00:22:55: Okay, you did a gender pay-gap.

00:22:58: What what would happen if still I don't even know what the mix between female and male managers in your organization?

00:23:08: maybe it's also.

00:23:10: It's

00:23:10: slightly more women now, and I came in.

00:23:12: there was one woman.

00:23:13: And now we've got sixty five hundred women.

00:23:15: Yeah But what if you had applied the same approach?

00:23:18: So he forgot your vision.

00:23:19: You've got your values.

00:23:20: everybody is you know huddling around this common value system Going into the same direction.

00:23:30: The result is it's you and eighty percent men and twenty percent Women.

00:23:36: What would be trying with that?

00:23:41: Yeah, I think i would.

00:23:43: And you know regularly what you say?

00:23:45: You know

00:23:46: yeah...I believe that the right person should do The job.

00:23:49: now.

00:23:49: just weren't clear one thing up there's quite a lot of Misconception about the gender pay gap.

00:23:54: There are instances where A man and woman doing the same Job were paid differently..you Know we've all seen and heard Of them most of the Gender Pay Gap and certainly in the One That existed when I came into SF is Driven by the lack of senior women.

00:24:09: so if you take average of all the men's pay and that average of All The Women's Pay, That' s the difference in the gender pay gap.

00:24:15: So when you have far less senior women, the averages are just lower And so I think Germany is definitely further behind the UK In that regard.

00:24:27: There're some structural issues particularly around parental leave and child care norms create a different challenge and it do prevent more women from getting to those senior positions.

00:24:45: But look, I have to stand by what i say.

00:24:47: you know if the right people for the job all happen to be older white men then than those are the right.

00:24:55: I think you always have to look at, what's the makeup of the general population?

00:25:06: And if your only attracting one certain demographic a bit is your recruitment process right.

00:25:11: If you're satisfied that everybody has got the same chance and everyone being given fair access to the same opportunity particularly in something like The World I Do where you don't need lots of feelings have had any advantages in life, barriers to entry are quite low.

00:25:32: You come and learn on the job you just want.

00:25:35: do it!

00:25:36: If your satisfied that your recruitment process is open & fair then I'd have to stand by that.

00:25:44: It would annoy me.

00:25:45: i wonder why this was the case.

00:25:48: as a woman but... I wouldn't want to be a woman who was put there just for demographic reason and i would not do that to anybody else either.

00:26:00: Yeah, yeah understand okay very interesting topic.

00:26:05: now coming back to corporate leadership governance is huge topic we are talking about.

00:26:14: you know at least in the EU loads of regulations supply chain regulations and ESG, corporate social responsibility has been around for ages.

00:26:29: How does this affect the... the leadership styles, or corporate leadership.

00:26:37: The formal side of leaderships and also I would like to understand from your point of view how do these rules help or hinder performance in the C-suite?

00:26:49: What is your view on

00:26:51: that?

00:26:53: Maybe not everyone will agree with me...I'm a naturally somebody who will swerve roles & procedures things that feel very restrictive, and so my immediate answer is they hinder more than help.

00:27:09: Now sometimes there's really good reasons for things.

00:27:12: you know ESG rules.

00:27:15: in financial services sector There are lots of really important rules where there're good reason why their'e.

00:27:19: here I think leaders need to have course.

00:27:23: what other thing that really matter?

00:27:25: Where the red lines?

00:27:27: But My own personal experience when When the CEO spends too much time tied up in red tape, they cannot be doing a good job of leading and growing their business because that two things tend to be the antithesis.

00:27:41: Of one another.

00:27:42: And so I think you just have to have really team around who trust To take care those things Who will flag The right thing to do at the right time.

00:27:55: Take rest of noise away.

00:27:57: So much of growth and leading an inspiring is about, you know how to innovate And how to break down barriers are moving two areas where?

00:28:08: Things haven't been tied up with red tape or in a. you haven't yet.

00:28:12: It's a new market.

00:28:13: And so it's untapped territory Or it's something exciting or expansion.

00:28:19: I think my own personal leadership style that's where i like To spend time but i'm lucky to have A very good team who take care of, you know some of the more boring if we can call it that stuff and It's really important.

00:28:33: It has to be done properly.

00:28:34: We want to be a responsible business.

00:28:37: Yeah.

00:28:39: But yeah too much leadership time spent on things that Can restrain growth is not the right balance?

00:28:47: Yeah Yes I understand so am i getting you correctly?

00:28:51: everything which is which needs to be fulfilled from a legal point of view, but in general try not as bureaucratic.

00:29:07: Would that be

00:29:09: good?

00:29:09: Most definitely one of the kind of founding principles for when I came into my role was that I, well you know we're a medium-sized business and i grew up in the corporate world.

00:29:21: I was at big four for the first seven years of my career And...I always saw there's an opportunity to create both worlds environment where they have great training grounds so much scale, financial firepower polish infrastructure but they don't have that agility of a smaller business.

00:29:40: you know creating a world where we've got all of that in it.

00:29:44: We're a private equity backed business and we've Got All Of That um Infrastructure And Fire Power Behind Us But Keeping The Agility the Flexibility the Innovative Thinking of A Small Business.

00:29:58: So built our business out as a collection of small businesses rather than one kind of ever growing corporate precisely to create this best-of both worlds.

00:30:09: So, it... This is just my own personal opinion.

00:30:11: there's obviously lots of you know very successful big businesses out there who do it very well um but I find that the more you can retain that flexibility and agility in pockets of your business The easier it tends to be to respond and grow to what's happening at the market.

00:30:29: Okay so to quote the old picture again of the flotilla speedboats instead a huge

00:30:40: ocean.

00:30:43: Good, very good!

00:30:45: So as if it had not been hard enough so far we are also now in a period of geopolitical trouble... Excuse me?

00:31:04: Sometimes it sounds funny sometimes what's happening.

00:31:07: What you're hearing, doesn't?

00:31:08: But um, it's your.

00:31:10: politically You know everything is quite shaky.

00:31:13: I would say It's difficult.

00:31:20: Stability has been an illusion all the time but The level of instability and and the lack of reliability that we have today in a geopolitical context has not existed for quite some time.

00:31:40: So now it doesn't really help, you know?

00:31:45: If I am C-level leader... ...I have to cope with that!

00:31:54: Our central competencies skills attitudes What does it in general mean for corporate leadership and leaders of the future?

00:32:06: To be prepared for that, how can they deal with such a tremendously challenging situation at this point.

00:32:18: You have to be the type who likes to roll with punches.

00:32:22: I think You know, somebody that's all about careful you-know twenty year planning is not enjoying their job right now.

00:32:31: So yeah I mean look...I think as i say it kind of is what it is there doesn't if you're not prepared and don't have the ability to adapt then..you've probably given up the role already.

00:32:46: we've been dealing with this for quite a while now since twenty-twenty its being one thing after another hasn't?

00:32:52: I think in some ways it was really useful for me.

00:32:54: I started my current role in January, twenty-twenty obviously with a beautiful beautifully prepared three year business plan which didn't go according to plan whatsoever as soon as COVID stopped.

00:33:04: so now i got off.

00:33:06: you can say on the right foot that everything was about adapting and changing.

00:33:11: there'll be CEOs who've been in roles for twenty years where they have fifteen years of low interest rates.

00:33:17: things were being calm, stable maybe particularly after the financial crash kind of thing started to recover.

00:33:24: And they've been doing their job a certain way for a long time and now suddenly they have had to change.

00:33:30: They got tough jobs in their hands but I think there's some level of sadisticness that comes with doing a C-suite role.

00:33:38: anyway You deal with lot problems you learn absorb lots stress and help people through stresses that they're dealing with, deal with business issues.

00:33:50: and so I think for most C-suite leaders you've got to where you've gotten by already having navigated quite a lot of challenges battles waves whatever you want to call them now.

00:34:03: the waves have definitely got a lot bigger but hopefully we are all more experienced.

00:34:10: We've.

00:34:14: So I probably don't really have any helpful advice for anyone.

00:34:18: I think it's lean into it, see as all part of the fun of a leadership

00:34:23: role.

00:34:24: Being nimble and quick

00:34:27: is much easier...

00:34:29: Without being an activist you know that's danger constantly doing things kind of losing my head.

00:34:41: That's from my point of view.

00:34:43: I mean, you really know that finding the middle ground here isn't

00:34:49: what would... You definitely have to be enjoying yourself to do a role like this.

00:34:52: well and so whether it is your natural style or not i think leaning into as bit of game of whack-a-mole Is always good mindset.

00:35:04: start with.

00:35:05: Have you, as a recruitment company adapted your selection process according to the changing environment?

00:35:12: Or have we done this all of the time.

00:35:14: I guess maybe... You've been in recruitment now for some ten years or something?

00:35:20: Yeah eleven.

00:35:21: Yes!

00:35:22: Have you seen it changed over the years?

00:35:27: Well... As you can always do the odd personality test and standard assessment center and all that.

00:35:37: On the other hand, I do...I could imagine that approaches do change with different challenges we have or also the differing or developing or evolving requirements on C-suite And i would also imagine they are quite differently today from

00:36:05: If I look back ten years ago, the thing that has changed most is not necessarily the recruitment sector.

00:36:11: The recruitment sectors have evolved massively in terms of how we do things and technology tools but a fundamental art of recruitment finding the right person for their job... ...the core of it still very much the same?

00:36:25: The thing that's changed are businesses that were hiring for have become much, much more candid at an employee centric than they used to be.

00:36:35: So they understand now and you know I think there's partly a generational shift that's happened with some of the younger... You know when certainly my generation those above me came into the workforce There were certain expectations around um..you work in a job ,you find your way up, stay with business build career And i think constant switching, side hustles that kind of culture just didn't exist back then.

00:37:06: People tended to be wired to be loyal to an employer until they had a reason not-to-be whereas today that just isn't the case anymore and it chalk employers quite a while to get wise about... And I think you know we have this huge wave after Covid where there were already quite a lot of employers i'd say in like, twenty eighteen-twenty nineteen really starting to get good at this.

00:37:29: but it's only after COVID when most of the rest of the market caught up to understand that recruitment doesn't just happen automatically because everybody wants a job now.

00:37:40: You have to really sell why somebody wants to join your organization.

00:37:45: what do you stand for?

00:37:47: what are your values?

00:37:48: What impact do you have on the world around you, positive and negative.

00:37:51: What's the environment?

00:37:52: how do you treat

00:37:53: people?".

00:37:53: And so I think that role of The Recruiter has become more well-rounded because we're advising our clients On a much broader range Of things.

00:38:01: now We in our own business Have gone through this huge transformation On the same lines That we've won awards for.

00:38:09: So it is very good For us to be able To sit with Our Clients and say This Is How We'Ve Done It This is how you will attract the best people.

00:38:17: And this is how we'll retain those people, going back more than ten years probably about twenty-thirty staff turnover was much lower.

00:38:27: so it's very normal to be a kind of lifer in business.

00:38:31: and then y'know... Going back ten years wasn't necessarily that much but there are definitely more turn over today.

00:38:36: People just don't feel that same need placed on variety in different experiences and trying a bit more of different things.

00:38:48: And so I think that's the big shift that i've seen, you know particularly now that next ten years if I was to kind of look ahead where we're going be probably can't quite accurately predict at twenty thirty five but maybe at least the next five years lots of jobs are gonna be automated new disruption, there's going to be lots of people who have to retrain and they'll try their hand at something different.

00:39:14: And so I think this increasing turnover... ...and reducing longevity in businesses is gonna continue as a theme for quite some time.

00:39:27: So your generation was still that kind of.

00:39:31: be loyal you know?

00:39:32: Make it good education get a good job make the steady eddy attitude, something like that.

00:39:42: And then you're seeing shift with Generation Z or earlier?

00:39:48: Yeah

00:39:49: I'd say so!

00:39:49: I'm one of the oldest millennials probably from one of them onwards.

00:39:55: yeah and that shifts starts to happen but it's not a hard-and-fast rule.

00:39:59: different people are different definitely from younger millennial onwards Probably when the rise of social media coincided with people's stuff.

00:40:11: The late nineteen nineties may be born in the midst to late ninety nineties.

00:40:17: Yeah, good three most important skills off these leaders and such a world

00:40:25: You mean for people trying to recruit?

00:40:28: To cope it you know.

00:40:30: to cope with it.

00:40:31: to be successful develop organisations You know to live this, you know.

00:40:40: Yeah Be a good leader.

00:40:42: To be a good corporate leader What are the three more important skills from your point of view?

00:40:46: And

00:40:47: Sleep Gotta be really good at looking after yourself I'd say is the first thing

00:40:53: Physical fitness.

00:40:54: basically.

00:40:55: yeah The whole put-your-own oxygen mask on first so much better and healthier.

00:41:01: No more workaholics around there.

00:41:04: Yeah i mean you can still be a workaholic.

00:41:06: You know, when... enough is enough and you've got to go in all that.

00:41:10: Walking off the road while your kid does not know or she doesn't know where he's going.

00:41:15: I'm still very much a fan of work-hard culture but look after yourself hard too so.. That was one thing successful people often neglects.

00:41:27: for me personally i found out more i look after myself than better at my job.

00:41:31: So I'd say thats one thing.

00:41:35: Start with YOU Um, secondly I'd say you know.

00:41:40: back to the authenticity point.

00:41:43: there's layers of it.

00:41:44: nobody is a perfectly hundred percent authentic human being on their first day in a C-suite role but i think constantly leaning into trying to be as much of yourself as you can be share as much your reality with your people so that they understand who you are.

00:42:04: And then the third thing just has to be, it's being open to continuous learning.

00:42:10: I don't believe that business leaders with a fixed mindset will ever achieve much.

00:42:15: you know they might get lucky there like in protected industry where your turning out steel widgets all day and theres not much is going change.

00:42:25: but i think for most of us learning, evolving.

00:42:30: Keep that mental agility keep your mind open That things can be done better differently than you've done them before.

00:42:39: Yeah I know yeah...that brings me to another question which just comes through my mind Sarah and it's really interesting in your point of view.

00:42:47: i know from my own experience.

00:42:48: so when I worked as an international manager I ran subsidiaries of big corporates abroad worked as a managing director of stand-alone companies, etc.

00:43:02: The only thing and what all these positions had in common I just got thrown into at the deep end you know?

00:43:12: So nothing swim or sink kind of attitude etc.

00:43:18: Obviously your learning a lot but i must admit making a lot of mistakes that might be avoided if you had somebody who I told before.

00:43:29: Things, because they have not been in this situation.

00:43:34: Talking about which?

00:43:36: Would we say everybody goes into such a new role or something like what i never had should have the coach.

00:43:47: and then next question It can be quite a difficult situation if you're looking for these people inside the organization.

00:44:00: Because especially in corporates there's lot of politics going on, it is very difficult... I would think that they are still the same today!

00:44:09: Difficult to find trust You know?

00:44:11: It needs time and your new etc.

00:44:14: So what do we have here?

00:44:15: because this is classical HR topic so its your home turf

00:44:20: Yeah, and so definitely in favour of coaches or mentors.

00:44:24: I'd say you know early in your career the internal mentor is actually really useful that other people help you navigate the politics learn who you need to know take you under their wing.

00:44:34: when an external coach who has nothing to do with my industry or business for years.

00:44:43: I really would recommend it.

00:44:45: and you know sometimes people go into thinking, oh what are they going tell me?

00:44:51: And actually even when i arrange a session in my diary that there is no talk about today hadn't realized that these were problems.

00:45:03: I was not dealt with or things on my mind but actually, i knew the answer.

00:45:08: I just needed somebody to help me get it out of my brain.

00:45:12: so I would absolutely recommend a coach.

00:45:15: some people and business leaders have multiple coaches...I'm not at this level!

00:45:20: I don't know if you could afford time but

00:45:22: yeah

00:45:24: definitely we'd recommend it.

00:45:26: okay good well you know for several things, mental coach sleep coach maybe whatever.

00:45:35: You can't sleep or what?

00:45:38: Anyway yeah I do believe so too because there's one other danger that i've seen is That once you get into these positions Believe it or not many people Do believe they knew at all.

00:45:52: see if oh no i've made it.

00:45:54: now I'm the big guy.

00:46:00: That's a real danger, you know?

00:46:02: To lose a little bit ground under your feet and here also... ...I would believe an external voice can make huge difference.

00:46:13: Yeah

00:46:14: i agree!

00:46:15: Also when in position of seniority When I first became a CEO, somebody said to me it's little bit like being the queen.

00:46:24: Everybody suddenly stops telling you truth and just tells what want hear?

00:46:31: It really is true!

00:46:34: You know i work extremely hard.

00:46:36: try get people tell my problems but its human nature isn't

00:46:40: it?!

00:46:40: People wants put their best foot forward in front of that boss And having someone who trust who can hold a mirror up to you without any consequences, You're not their boss.

00:46:52: Their career doesn't depend on you and sometimes give your bit of metaphorical slap if you need it.

00:46:58: I think that's really important because It is easy.

00:47:01: when Your inner position of authority And people tell you That your ideas are great Tell what you wanna hear.

00:47:10: Don't want upset.

00:47:11: you Can start to believe I'm so clever and i have all these great ideas.

00:47:15: And everybody agrees with me, is it really the reality of things though?

00:47:21: Having that person who isn't afraid to tell you about yourself if they think you need it... ...I think that would be really important!

00:47:29: Yeah yeah yes So do I?

00:47:31: Good now we're talking corporate but this This podcast is actually also quite intentionally made for SMEs.

00:47:42: Small and medium-sized enterprises, so they do not have these resources in general as large corporates.

00:47:51: So how can they prepare better for disruptions?

00:47:55: And manage an upcoming crisis with this limited means?

00:48:03: What's your take on that?

00:48:06: Well, I would actually say that small businesses are at a real advantage compared to corporate.

00:48:11: Yes they don't have as deep pockets but... ...they can move a heck of a lot faster than big business can.

00:48:20: They do not have lots.

00:48:21: layers in decision making and bureaucracy need be gone through.

00:48:25: There is no lots.

00:48:28: agreement there has got to be had across the board.

00:48:30: It could get on make things happen.

00:48:32: generally more fungible Staff, if you imagine taking an example of a finance function in a corporate that Finance Function might have twenty people just in accounts.

00:48:43: one person only does I don't know staff meal tickets and other Person Only Does You Know Client Invoicing.

00:48:50: In A Small Business Where Your Finance Functions Might Only Be Five People And Everybody Does A Bit Of Everything!

00:48:56: In A Crisis You Can Move And Turn People To Different Things very quickly and easily.

00:49:04: And that's true, you know with back office staff sales staff in a way that people in bigger businesses don't always have A the expectation of agility That they do into all business Don't always Have the breadth of experience because obviously The nature of them but their job that I do tends to be not Always But certainly until we get through the very top levels tends To Be a bit more narrow?

00:49:26: So i actually would say that small Businesses should be really aware power that they have to move and respond quickly.

00:49:35: They're people generally usually, not always but usually the kind of awareness and communications around what's going on in their business is a bit tighter just because it's smaller.

00:49:45: I mean there are less people together across.

00:49:47: so most people who've got at least some access to the boss know whats' going on or you don't need big town halls cause maybe only a couple offices.

00:50:01: Recognising that power, not putting yourself in a mindset of oh I'm just little business and I haven't got any money but actually... ...I am just a little business.

00:50:08: Look what i can do with really short space time if need to!

00:50:12: And especially depending on the stage of growth.

00:50:15: entrepreneurial businesses are quite early stages.

00:50:17: often there is founder who has put their entire life into this.

00:50:22: so you better make sure your gonna sort problem.

00:50:30: Personally, with all of the turbulence going on in the world right now I'm quite happy to not be a really big corporate leadership position.

00:50:42: Those people have very tough jobs because there's a lot... The oil tanker is big and it needs a lot movement!

00:50:49: And i am happy about my many speedboats.

00:50:54: so small business leaders should see that as real strength.

00:51:00: How's the market in general?

00:51:01: Recruitment market right now.

00:51:03: I mean especially, I don't know so much about the UK I must admit Right Now Germany is not really you Know In an economic.

00:51:16: It's an economic up after and so to speak.

00:51:21: There are still a lot of demand in both countries So lots of client-demand but There is a lot of uncertainty on the candidate side.

00:51:33: People are being really careful about decisions, they don't want to get it wrong... there's also... was he also afraid?

00:51:40: Yeah exactly!

00:51:42: It was also a period of really rapid wage inflation after Covid so that quite a lot people have priced themselves out of moves as well and just become too expensive.

00:51:52: stick where they are until their experience has caught up.

00:51:55: So I wouldn't say the market's on its knees and there are lots of businesses out that still investing, still moving forward you know?

00:52:04: Lots international business in both countries were.

00:52:07: you might have a US or an Asian parent who got a branch over here.

00:52:13: so local economic backdrop is not always the only factor around whether growing and investing, obviously certain industries are doing better than others as well.

00:52:24: So I'd say when you take it as a macro things are fairly flat but there are pockets of really intense investment in growth.

00:52:35: so we do a lot in the private equity back space for those businesses.

00:52:38: they've all got lots of investments that're growing And then definitely our opportunities out there.

00:52:43: There's been period last year market was much slower.

00:52:47: I think there's a natural cycle in business where when there is uncertainty people pause and they want to wait and see what happens.

00:52:55: That cause on investment has got shelf life, you can't pause forever.

00:53:00: businesses have got shareholders or targets so we're coming out of the pause period and businesses are just starting say look this the world is what it is, you know if there's going to be new tariffs we're just gonna have to deal with it and so let's get on without a plan.

00:53:18: Just getting on with things now being a bit more conservative you know recognizing that there's a lot more scope for turbulence.

00:53:25: So I want to overly invest in maybe lots of expensive fixed cost workforce but um... There are definitely lots room for growth.

00:53:38: Individuals who want to look for a new role right now, there's some really good opportunities out there because when investment has been on hold it tends to be big investment decisions and opportunities that are going create lots of growth.

00:53:49: When you're in the business as growing is obviously really good for your career cause you grow with it And I think those two cautious and wait until everything comes back again They'll list all these opportunities.

00:54:00: So this quite unique window i'd say for next six months For people looking at the net step up into their career.

00:54:09: Sarah, SF Partners certainly sees organizations during repeated cycles of disruption.

00:54:16: Now talking especially about disruption and transformation what would you say is important for a C-level leader?

00:54:31: Yeah I think we have to be really clear on the transformation setting And be honest about why you're doing it.

00:54:41: I think we sometimes see when transformations fail, It's because the leadership haven't been honest about the real reasons they wanted to do it.

00:54:49: You know whether is for fear of upsetting staff or worrying people about their jobs Or whatever it may be and i think successful transformations require The support input Support an import of your business in the team.

00:55:07: When that does involve difficult conversations sometimes, you know nearly all transformations involves some kind of redundancies because You're gonna stop doing something and you're going to start doing sort-of thing out.

00:55:17: Yeah Or it requires people to upskill or change their roles And I think people in a people are not stupid and respect being Being told the truth and so i'd say That's uh, that's a real important part of any leadership.

00:55:34: transformation is just be really, really clear about why you're doing it and if you aren't confident enough to articulate that reason to your people then you need to think again about...about your plan because most of the time um ...you rely on the business to make something happen.

00:55:53: You know as we say culture eats strategy for breakfast.

00:55:56: If you haven't got the buy-in of the shot floor The best laid transformation plans are probably not going come to fruition anyway.

00:56:03: Um, so keep going back until you've got a plan that you are confident to stand up in front of the whole business and explain without hiding anything.

00:56:11: Without fudging anything And if he can do that You're onto a winner.

00:56:14: Whether or not the biggest risks during these times for four these leaders?

00:56:20: Yeah It's always execution.

00:56:22: There is always things into transformation That...you didn't really know until you stop doing it.

00:56:29: Then somebody says oh This is not what we thought, okay then.

00:56:33: We need to revisit and again you know I think there's a danger of feeling like Okay look stupid now And are we gonna be honest until the truth?

00:56:40: As i say most people are intelligent and ununderstand.

00:56:45: So just being going into things with understanding that There will some bits we don't know That maybe haven't been thought through or got right.

00:56:53: We want our business to support us.

00:56:57: As long as you're open and honest about things, there's not a lot that can go wrong because... You haven't set expectations that were false.

00:57:06: But yeah I mean execution every time.

00:57:11: Perfect!

00:57:12: Yeah i love it Because in my management career obviously now is an entrepreneur.

00:57:18: My lead of twenty people organization..you have to execute.

00:57:23: There's no room.

00:57:27: No room for apologies, let's put it like that.

00:57:30: In larger organizations there are loads of rooms for apologies and one thing which happens a lot is just because the decision has disadvantages you're not taking or executing what you've decided.

00:57:46: You see?

00:57:47: There IS no decision without disadvantages!

00:57:51: Just have to do it.

00:57:54: I've seen very, very few organizations with that what i call executive discipline.

00:58:01: You see?

00:58:02: Just do it and live with the consequences because there will be negative consequences.

00:58:08: you just have to weigh them up against each other.

00:58:13: make a real decision here.

00:58:15: good now final thing I've got favorites as corporate leaders.

00:58:25: You know, people have always looked up to obviously a Steve Jobs very much because of his vision basically and his persistence.

00:58:34: And there's another guy you probably haven't heard off but... Because he was too young.

00:58:39: His name is Lou Gerstner.

00:58:41: when he took over IBM in nineteen ninety four When that company Was losing Four billion dollars.

00:58:50: so they made the loss of four billion dollars.

00:58:53: organizations in the world don't make four billion dollars of revenues, you know?

00:58:57: But this company produced losses.

00:58:59: He turned it around with one iconic sentence when he was asked at the beginning what his vision was and always journalists were like Mr Gerstner, Mr Gerster... What's your

00:59:10: vision?".

00:59:11: And then they said well listen guys!

00:59:12: The last thing I need right now is a vision You

00:59:15: see?!

00:59:16: He just got on with it and made it happen.

00:59:19: so great guy good book about him, Saving Big Blue.

00:59:24: Anyway do you have favourite corporate leaders and if yes who are they?

00:59:28: And why?

00:59:29: yeah I struggle with this question.

00:59:31: i think there's so many people out there he can draw different things.

00:59:35: um

00:59:36: that

00:59:39: the leader always speaks to me.

00:59:41: the ones who aren't afraid to be a little bit different.

00:59:51: The one that actually comes to mind for me is a bit of bizarre answer.

00:59:54: But the guy who runs Ryanair, they're not afraid to just call it like-it's say what says on the tin and do what he said in the tin.

01:00:05: I'm going to sign up for Ryanair but iIike the leadership approach that is brazy... He's another

01:00:11: greek name!

01:00:13: So, you

01:00:17: know that's one of the ones it jumps out to me.

01:00:19: I think if i have a click follow on somebody seeing on LinkedIn or Instagram It is always people who are unafraid To say something different Or what's in their mind Just saying what everybody else says.

01:00:34: What value do they add into this world?

01:00:36: Why does anybody need to...

01:00:39: It easier as an entrepreneur.

01:00:40: If your looking at Richard Branson He just built up his whole thing from scratch.

01:00:46: I read his autobiography, unbelievable.

01:00:50: It's like a Jules Verne novel you see but unlike Jules verne it is reality.

01:00:59: this guy has got kind of an adventure story.

01:01:02: so quite interesting and i do agree with you.

01:01:05: being different is certainly attractive unfortunately not so feasible in corporate environments But there's no more pressure in the entrepreneurial world.

01:01:18: Obviously, you know a guy like jobs.

01:01:20: could they say whatever he wants it at the end of day?

01:01:24: You can't if you are say the CEO of British Airways.

01:01:27: three by six.

01:01:30: anyway We've come to an end.

01:01:34: Sarah I'd like just thank you for this wonderful conversation.

01:01:39: really great and interesting insights into The C-suite from sea level manager, working with sea-level people.

01:01:50: So I'm totally sure that our listeners will really benefit a lot from this session.

01:01:57: so thanks a lot and...

01:01:59: That would be very much for having me!

01:02:01: Thank you and see you soon.